Mary Scott Hodgin: A heads up before we get going. This is a grown-up story about prison. It describes violent acts. It's not for kids and it may not be for all adult listeners. 

Protestors: No new prisons! No new prisons!

Mary Scott Hodgin: It’s late September 2021. 

A group of advocates stands outside the Alabama state house in Montgomery. Many of them wear face masks. They hold signs that read “People not prisons” and “Stop the Spending Spree.”

Inside the state house, Alabama lawmakers are voting on a plan to build new prisons. Part of the money to pay for them would come from COVID relief funding.  

Pastor Kenneth Glasgow posted part of the rally on Facebook Live. 

Kenneth Glasgow: So you see we’re up here fighting y’all at the state house.

Mary Scott Hodgin: Glasgow stares straight into the camera and urges people to call their legislators. 

Kenneth Glasgow: Call and ask them ‘Who do I call to tell them I don’t agree with them using our COVID relief money to save our lives to build prisons to put people in the death trap?’ So we’re going to take money from health care to open up more death traps. That’s crazy. God bless y’all. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: A few days later, lawmakers approved the prison construction plan.

Alabama will spend roughly $1.3 billion dollars to build two new mega-prisons for men. More than a quarter of the cost will come from COVID relief money. 

In many ways, it’s the state’s answer to a crisis that’s been brewing for decades -- an investment to avoid a federal takeover.  

But it’s not the solution many advocates and people inside prison hoped to see.  

From WBHM in Birmingham, this is Deliberate Indifference, the story of Alabama’s prison crisis and the people inside it. 

I’m Mary Scott Hodgin. 

In this final episode we look at the fight to reform Alabama’s prison system and what’s next for the people inside.

PART ONE

David Fuller: I growed up dressing and dancing.

Mary Scott Hodgin: David Fuller is 54 years old. He stands 6 foot 1, weighs 380 pounds.

David Fuller: I still can dance. I’m big but I can dance. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: He also still likes to dress nice. 

But for most of his life David Fuller wore an Alabama prison uniform. 

He was first locked up when he was a teenager.  And says he grew up in prison.  Fuller’s adult record shows he served almost 30 years for primarily theft and drug-related charges. 

In prison, Fuller says he learned unwritten rules, like where he should sit and who he should avoid. 

He learned how to make whiskey out of peas and oranges to sell to other inmates.

He learned to carry a knife and defend himself and he became a loyal member of the Crips gang.

Fuller says over the years, he saw a lot of violence in prison.

David Fuller: I done seen a knife go all the way through a dude. I done seen a man neck hanging off his head. We had to hold his neck, you understand, because his throat was cut. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Fuller says he was a victim of other violence. And he says he attacked other men and was violent himself.

In the summer of 2018, David Fuller was released on parole.

David Fuller: The day I left prison, you had about 148 crips at the gate seeing me go home. Crying, and hollering.

Fuller was excited to get out. He wanted to set an example for the men inside, prove that he could make it.

David Fuller: My influence is for the people that’s inside the prison walls. If I can do it, they can do it. And if I can show the administration that the worse man that y’all thought was in prison that can come out here and be a citizen, why not take a chance with some more guys that’s in prison? 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Thousands of people move through Alabama’s prison system each year. Some finish their sentences. Some are released on probation or parole. 

Some never go back. Others cycle in and out. 

There are several ways to track rates of recidivism. By one measure, prison officials estimate, about half of the inmate population has been incarcerated before. 

Just about everyone I’ve talked to wants to stop that cycle.

Many people say a big part of the problem is a lack of support for men and women when they get out. 

They say that should be a priority for the state. Getting people back on their feet, keeping them out of prison in the first place.

The way it is now, people are locked up for a few months, maybe decades, without access to the internet, no steady income, away from friends and family. And then they leave prison and they have to just kind of figure things out:  Find a place to live. Get a job, health insurance, transportation.

The state does offer a few programs to help with the transition. Some people earn a GED or a job training certificate while they're in prison. The department of corrections also employs reentry coordinators and offers short-term reentry classes. 

There’s a bit more structure for people released on parole or probation. These individuals meet regularly with a supervisor once they get out. 

But many people leaving prison say they rely on family and friends, nonprofits and churches. 

Some stay in transitional programs or halfway houses, which typically cost money and are not available to everyone. 

Others end up sleeping in parks or under bridges. 

According to the Prison Policy Initiative, a national nonprofit that researches incarceration issues, people leaving prison are “almost 10 times more likely to be homeless” than the general population.

When David Fuller got out in 2018, he left with $10 and a bus ticket. That’s what the state offers most inmates.

Fuller had connections with a church group that he’d joined while he was in prison. They helped him get an apartment and a car.

Even with that support Fuller says after decades in prison, returning to the free world was difficult. 

David Fuller: They just let you out. You don’t talk to nobody. You don’t go see no counselor. You don’t go see someone to, to adjust to the population out here in society. They just put you out here.  

Mary Scott Hodgin: Fuller says one person who’s helped him through it all is Dena Dickerson.

Dena Dickerson: A great morning to you.

Mary Scott Hodgin: [laughs]

Dena Dickerson: You are truly a soldier, a trooper

Mary Scott Hodgin: Dena Dickerson helps run a re-entry support program in Birmingham. Up until fall of 2021, she also worked at a local homeless shelter. That’s where I met her one day at 5 a.m.

Dena Dickerson: Gentlemen if you would, put your shirts on for me. Good morning. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Dickerson is in her early 50s. She’s a mother and a grandmother. And she’s always on the move. Answering a phone call. Driving someone somewhere. Organizing a meeting. 

Dena Dickerson: All right gentlemen if you’re sitting down, you’re hurting me. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Men at the shelter have a lot of respect for her.  

Man 1: Dena is a beautiful, wonderful person, very intelligent.

Man 2: She a very caring, loving, caring person.

Mary Scott Hodgin: They say Dickerson is firm, but fair. 

Man 3: She ain’t gonna take no bullshit. I mean, you get your ass in gear or you get the hell on. Bottom line.

Man 4: She passionate for helping people like us, you know, homeless people, people on drugs. People who just got out of prison, you know what I’m saying. 

Dena Dickerson: Persons that are homeless have the same challenges and barriers as individuals coming out of incarceration. They’re human beings. They’re ostracized. They’re isolated. They’re the invisible people of our society, I think. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Dickerson knows that because she’s lived it. In 2002, she was sentenced to 114 years for selling cocaine and “conspiracy to sell drugs.”  She served just under 10 years before she was released on parole. 

Dickerson says going to prison brands you. And the label sticks, even when you’re released.

Dena Dickerson: You leave prison to freedom, only to be incarcerated again to people’s ideas and emotions and prejudices about what you think. I say “I been to prison.” The initial reaction to the word and sound, that that is an ex-prisoner, or an ex-inmate or a convict or whatever, it resonates the same. People recoil the same way, like “whoa.” And then second nature is probably like, “I wonder what they did?” Right.

Mary Scott Hodgin: Dickerson says there are roadblocks to reclaiming a life. And everything costs money. 

Alabama is one of many states where employers can ask job applicants about their criminal history and make hiring decisions based on the answer.

Same thing with housing. Landlords can refuse rental applicants based on a criminal record.

Dickerson says before she could even look for work, she had to get a state-issued ID, which costs $36 and requires at least two other forms of identification. 

And like most people released on parole, Dickerson had to start paying $40 a month to the parole office. She’ll make that payment every month for the remainder of her sentence, likely the rest of her life. 

Dickerson says many people struggle with the transition. That’s one reason she helped start the Offender Alumni Association.

Dena Dickerson: OAA is an organization that was created for offenders, by offenders if you will, for support. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: It’s a small nonprofit mostly run by volunteers. Dickerson became the program director at the end of 2021. 

The group operates out of donated space at a counseling center in downtown Birmingham. It offers weekly meetings with food and discussion. There’s a violence prevention program for at-risk kids. The group also operates a program inside prison to help prepare people for release.

In its eight years, Dickerson says the group has served more than 2,000 people.

She says they give formerly incarcerated people the tools and resources to succeed. And encourage them to pay it forward. 

Dena Dickerson: You can be compassionate. But pity leaves them where they are, believe it. Pity leaves them where they are. It always gives us people that help people something to do, instead of allowing them to help themselves. Because if you would put them in a position to help themselves, they will help you help someone else. And that’s what we’re trying to build here. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Dickerson says people who’ve spent time in prison know the challenges both inside and outside of prison walls. They know what needs to change. 

Dena Dickerson: I think that we need to look at it from a place of healing instead of punishment. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: When the U.S. Justice Department declared that Alabama’s prisons violated inmates’ constitutional rights, the feds mandated changes. They told Alabama to improve conditions, to decrease violence and to address mismanagement and corruption. 

Advocates like Dena Dickerson hoped it would spark a new approach to criminal justice in Alabama. 

And it did prompt state leaders to assess criminal justice policies. 

There were discussions about sentencing reform, alternatives to prison, rehabilitation, and reentry services. 

Lawmakers proposed some reform bills, but the idea that rose to the top was new prisons.

That had been on the state’s agenda for years. Even before the U.S. Justice Department released its reports and filed a lawsuit.

One of the people most supportive of the idea was Jeff Dunn. He served as the commissioner of the Alabama Department of Corrections from 2015 until the end of 2021. 

I talked to Dunn many times during his tenure and he said new buildings are part of a new vision for the department. 

Jeff Dunn: One of the things that we see repeatedly is the deficiencies in the system that we currently have. It was not designed to be corrective in nature. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Dunn said current prison facilities cannot handle the number of people living in them. 

He said the aging structures are not safe for inmates or employees. 

U.S. Justice officials touch this in their 2019 report. 

They describe issues like doors that don’t lock and limited visibility in large dormitories. 

They say at one prison men who were stabbed or assaulted reported waiting for long periods of time to get help because the gate to reach them had to be physically opened with a key. 

The DOJ report says Alabama prison officials have known about the deficiencies for years, insufficient cameras, a lack of mirrors, electrical and plumbing systems that are falling apart. 

It says Alabama “prisons do not provide adequate humane conditions of confinement.”

The building conditions have played a role in several incidents. Men beaten up in the back of dormitories out of the sight of officers. Men who’ve died by suicide in cells that were supposed to be safer.

And sometimes the conditions of the buildings themselves factor into people’s deaths. 

In 2020, one man died of hyperthermia after the temperature in his cell reached more than 100 degrees in December. 

The autopsy report shows the man was found sitting near the window of his cell trying to breathe in cooler air. 

In the ongoing lawsuit about mental health care in Alabama’s prisons, federal judge Myron Thompson has also identified the potential danger of prison design.

The judge has ordered several changes, like requiring crisis cells to be suicide-proof.  

Alabama prison officials have estimated that it would cost around $1 billion dollars to fix all the deferred maintenance issues in current facilities. 

And they say even if they fix everything, the design and the layout of the prisons is a challenge that can only be fixed from the ground up.

Former Commissioner Jeff Dunn said there’s not enough space for the kinds of religious, educational and job training programs we heard about in episode 4. 

And Dunn said current buildings are not equipped to provide a high level of medical or mental health care. 

Jeff Dunn: Our system doesn't have any of those aspects of it. And so we're trying as part of our vision of the infrastructure to modernize and create a 21st century correctional environment. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: The push to build new prisons has been controversial.  

And several groups have tried to prevent it.  

Since the first DOJ report came out in 2019, advocates have encouraged Alabama leaders to invest in other options while addressing the state’s prison crisis. 

Dena Dickerson: Thank you sir. I am Dena Dickerson and I’m a directly impacted individual. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: During a study group meeting in late 2019, Dena Dickerson told lawmakers that people like her, people in prison and people who’ve left prison, don’t need new buildings. 

She said they need treatment for addiction and trauma. They need resources and support. They need the opportunity to move past their conviction and sentence. 

Dena Dickerson: What we needed was forgiveness. What the state of Alabama says is that’s exactly who we are. We’re a Christian state. That’s what this state says. And yet I will hold something against you for the rest of your life whether you’re in there or out of there. [Applause]

Mary Scott Hodgin: Since 2019, there’ve been several attempts to approve prison construction. 

First, the state proposed a “build-lease” plan. Private companies would fund the construction of new prisons and own them. Alabama would lease the buildings and operate them. 

That plan got pushback from all kinds of people including lawmakers on both sides of the aisle.

It ultimately fell through because investment firms pulled out of the deal. 

So in 2021, lawmakers proposed a different plan. The state would pay for the construction of new prisons with a government-issued bond and COVID-relief money.

That also sparked criticism but not as much. 

Representative Steve Clouse: Thank you. Of course the public hearing today is on House Bill 4.

Mary Scott Hodgin: In September of 2021, before they approved the project, lawmakers held a public hearing. 

People in support of the plan called it a great opportunity for economic development.

Billy Norrell: Good to see you Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. I’m Billy Norrell with the Alabama Association of General Contractors. We’re supportive of this legislation.

Mary Scott Hodgin: Business leaders and local officials from towns near the new prisons were enthusiastic about the project.

Troy Stubbs is the chairman of the Elmore County Commission. Elmore County is near Montgomery and it’s already home to three major prisons and a work release center. 

It’s also slated as a location for one of the new mega-prisons which’ll replace an existing facility. 

Stubbs told lawmakers the local prison economy accounts for hundreds of jobs and a $30 million payroll. He says the county welcomes the investment.

Troy Stubbs: Elmore County has been a great partner to the Alabama Department of Corrections for over a century. In fact yesterday, my wife showed me a picture of her grandfather in the late 1920’s, the late probate judge Edward Enslen as an infant in the prison yard in Elmore County. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Two people offered a different perspective suggesting that the state do more than just build new prisons. 

Rep. Steve Clouse: Uh, Carla Crowder from the Alabama Appleseed.

Carla Crowder: Good morning Mr. chairman and members of the committee. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Carla Crowder is the executive director of Alabama Appleseed, a legal nonprofit that researches the causes of poverty and incarceration.

Crowder told lawmakers at the public hearing she supports safer prisons.  But she said new buildings will not address the root problems.  

Carla Crowder: As a lawyer I have visited most of the prisons that are the subject of the DOJ lawsuit and I know they are wretched. I have also read the lawsuit and the two DOJ reports issued before the lawsuit was filed. Those documents are primarily concerned with unabated violence, including homicides, sexual assaults, excessive force by guards and the introduction of contraband by staff that propels the violence. The Department of Corrections has had two and half years to address this litany of deficiencies, understaffing, culture, corruption, training. Things have only gotten worse. Buildings are not killing people. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Days after this public hearing, most state lawmakers voted to approve the prison construction plan. Within hours Alabama’s Governor Kay Ivey -signed it into law.

After a break, Alabama plans to appease federal officials with new prisons, but some people say it won’t be enough.   

You're listening to Deliberate Indifference from WBHM in Birmingham.

PART TWO

Mary Scott Hodgin: This is a grown-up story about prison. It’s not for kids and it may not be for all adult listeners. 

This is Deliberate Indifference. I’m Mary Scott Hodgin.

Alabama plans to build its way out of a prison crisis. 

 And the state’s governor, Kay Ivey, supports the move. 

Kay Ivey: Well good afternoon y’all. I’m extremely pleased to join the bipartisan leadership of the Alabama legislature today for a bill signing ceremony for the prison construction bill package that moved through their respective houses this week.

Mary Scott Hodgin: Ivey says this is a true milestone. 

Kay Ivey: For several years now we have worked to address Alabama’s longstanding prison infrastructure challenges. These challenges were decades in the making, and while we’ve worked diligently to resolve them, it took a lot of hard work, and a lot of positive conversations between both sides of the aisle to get to today. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Alabama is already under federal court order to improve prison conditions. Governor Ivey says new prisons will help the state avoid more intervention from the federal courts. 

Kay Ivey: Achieving an Alabama solution to our problems, rather than a federal ordered court mandate was paramount. And y’all that’s what happened today.

Mary Scott Hodgin: Over the past several years, Ivey has refused repeated requests for an interview to talk to us about the state's prison crisis.

David Fuller: The governor listen to the politics in her ear, instead of listening to people who deal with the prison to help guys who can help theyself. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: David Fuller spent almost 30 years in Alabama prisons before getting out a few years ago. He doesn’t think new prisons will solve the problems that he faced. 

Many men I talked to inside prison feel the same way. 

Jim George: What do I think about it? I think it sucks. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: That’s Jim George who we heard from in previous episodes. He’s 72 years old and has spent more than 40 years locked up in Alabama’s prisons. 

Jim George: What they’re doing is not going to solve anything. They don’t give a damn about us. They just, they want the money for the prisons so they can siphon off all they can get their hands on. It’s all because of money and politics.  

Mary Scott Hodgin: Some incarcerated men think the decision to build prisons is about the economic benefits. The facilities offer new jobs and revenue for some counties and new business for the companies and contractors involved. 

Hasani Jennings is another familiar voice from this series. He’s served almost 30 years in Alabama’s prison system. 

Hasani Jennings: A lot of people are benefiting from that money that’s being spent. And the people that are benefiting from all that money that’s being spent, they don’t want the thing to change. So on one hand they’ll be complaining about things need to change, but on the other hand, their actual actions are keeping things the same. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Jennings says instead of building new prisons, he’d like state leaders to look for new solutions, to think differently about crime and punishment. 

Jennings specifically advocates for restorative justice, an approach to crime that focuses on healing and accountability.  

Hasani Jennings: People never have to look for thoughtful alternatives to the system that’s in place if the old system never leaves. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Carla Crowder, the executive director of Alabama Appleseed, who testified before lawmakers about the prison plan, says there are alternatives. 

But Crowder says reforms to the system are more complicated than just putting up new buildings. 

Carla Crowder: Yeah I’ve been thinking about how we look at the Department of Corrections, which is a massive state agency. Like the criminal justice system infrastructure, massive government system with very little accountability, especially prisons, because the people most affected by prisons are convicts. They’re felons. They made a mistake. And so the overarching consensus, it seems like by the public, has been “Well, as long as people are locked up for as long as possible, then that's what's working.”

Mary Scott Hodgin: She says it’s not working. 

Carla Crowder: Because if you look at the growth of the DOC budget, if you look at crime rates in this state, if you look at recidivism, if you look at the violence and the death and the inhumanity and the loss of human life inside the prisons, any measure of accountability tells us that this system has been a failure, an abject failure. And yet, now part of the solution is to continue down this path with new prisons and spend even more money.  

Mary Scott Hodgin: Crowder says the real solution lies outside prison walls. 

She says there are programs that are more successful, that help keep people out of prison, reduce violence and keep communities safer.

She says the state could invest more in diversion programs, community corrections, drug courts, and mental health courts. 

These do exist in Alabama, but there are not many. They’re not well funded and participants can rack up thousands of dollars in fees.

Crowder says state-funded housing programs also show success. After people are released, they get a few months of support to stay at a halfway house or receive rental assistance or housing vouchers.

Some states, including Georgia and Michigan, have reported a reduction in recidivism rates thanks, in part, to similar programs.  

Carla Crowder: You can look at what is happening here and then look around at what's happening in other states and realize this is not an impossible problem. We can do better. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Alabama spends roughly $600 million a year to house thousands of people, feed them and pay for their medical care while they’re in prison.  

Now the state is planning to spend an additional $1.3 billion on new prisons.

Crowder says she’d like the state to redirect its investment and put more of that money into services to improve education, decrease poverty and reduce crime. 

It’s worth noting that the former commissioner of the prison system, Jeff Dunn, has acknowledged this cycle, but through a slightly different lens. 

He says prisons absorb a lot of unmet needs in the free world. 

Jeff Dunn: A good friend of mine who is a director of their correctional system in another state made a comment recently that I thought was very, very astute observation. He says that every hole in the public safety net lands a person either on the street or in prison. And in prison you find every issue that society has not been able to address.

Mary Scott Hodgin: I wanted to know more about Governor Ivey’s position, her thoughts on reforming other parts of Alabama’s criminal justice system aside from the prison construction.

Will the state increase funding for community corrections or mental health courts? Is it considering more changes to the parole system? Are there new sentencing reforms in the works? 

In the fall of 2021, I was able to ask Governor Ivey one question during a two-minute media briefing after a luncheon focused on reentry.

Gina Maiola: All right and final question.

 Mary Scott Hodgin: Can you talk about other options aside from prison construction? What other policy changes might we see related to prison violence and overcrowding? 

Governor Kay Ivey: Well now that we’ve got the prison infrastructure bill passed, we can start construction there. While they’re building those two mega prisons, we can start dealing with prison, criminal justice reforms. So we’ll be taking those up in the near future.

Gina Maiola: Ok, want to make sure we have time.

Mary Scott Hodgin: Some details about the prison construction plan. The state will build two new mega-prisons for men. Each facility will house about 4,000 people, a design capacity roughly four times bigger than most existing prisons .  

The new buildings will replace several current facilities and create additional capacity. 

Lawmakers approved a bond issue to cover much of the cost. 

They also plan to use $400 million of COVID relief money to make up the difference. 

Advocates and some lawmakers have opposed that move. 

The U.S. Treasury Department issued guidance saying generally states cannot use pandemic relief money to build prisons. 

But that federal guidance included a few loopholes and state officials appear to be moving forward with the plan. 

They’ve signed a contract with developers and have said in court filings that construction should start sometime in 2022. 

It’ll be several years before the new buildings open.

Approving the plan was a significant milestone for former corrections commissioner Jeff Dunn 

He spent his entire tenure fighting for new prisons. 

And about two months after lawmakers gave the green light, Dunn announced his retirement. 

He stepped down as commissioner at the end of 2021. 

His replacement, John Hamm, took over at the beginning of 2022. 

Hamm has declined our interview requests. 

The last time I sat down with Jeff Dunn, in his final months as commissioner, he told me new prisons are part of a statewide effort to focus more on rehabilitation and reentry. 

Jeff Dunn: Big, big picture, it's worth noting that, and Governor Ivey has mentioned this several times, that we are moving from a system that warehouses criminals to one that rehabilitates returning citizens. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: He said the new prisons will be “state of the art” with more video surveillance and less dormitory-style housing.

Jeff Dunn: We will always have the public safety mission and we take that very seriously. And there will be some people that come to us who frankly should probably never leave. And we will do our responsibility to fulfill that aspect of public safety. But 95 percent of our inmates will eventually return back to their communities. And so it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when, and under what condition. And we want to do the best job that we can to address the issues that got them there and prepare them to be successful citizens when they leave us. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: In the past year, there has been an effort to increase communication between the prison system and the Bureau of Pardons and Paroles. 

The state created a commission to share information about people leaving prison and better track recidivism rates.

The director of the Bureau of Pardons and Paroles is Cam Ward. Ward says this focus on reentry is part of a new direction for his agency.

Cam Ward: I don't think the state has ever done enough when it comes to reentry programs. And I still don't think we do enough.  I think we've got to keep doing more, but I think we're finally getting on the same page where we need to have more reentry programs.

Mary Scott Hodgin: Ward has been in the job since late 2020. He replaced Charlie Graddick, who oversaw the department when parole rates plummeted. 

We talked about that in Episode 3. 

Ward is quick to point out that he doesn’t make parole decisions. That’s the responsibility of the three-member board. 

But Ward says his focus is on making sure that people who do get released early are successful. 

Cam Ward: What does someone do when they get out? Say they're on parole for six, eight, 10 months? What do we do to help them better prepare so that they don't commit a crime again, they're successful, and they're getting help dealing with any kind of underlying issues that they may have mental health or substance abuse. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Ward says the bureau has added more reentry programs including a new residential center that opened in 2022. These programs include job training, counseling and drug treatment. 

Advocates say this focus on reentry is a step in the right direction. But it only affects people leaving prison on probation or parole.

When he served as commissioner, Jeff Dunn said he supported a comprehensive approach to criminal justice reform. 

But when it came to topics like sentencing, Dunn said the department deferred to lawmakers. 

Jeff Dunn: You know, the Department of Corrections, we don’t see ourselves as a real policy driver. We consult, we offer our thoughts. But ultimately, the legislature and the governor are responsible for those policy initiatives and we execute them to the best of our ability.

Mary Scott Hodgin: The thing is those policy initiatives can have a big impact on the prison system and the people inside. 

A key example, because of the decline in parole rates these past few years, many men I’ve talked to in prison say they've lost hope. They say there’s less incentive to participate in programs and maintain good behavior. 

The decline in parole rates also means fewer people are leaving prison early which has an impact on the prison population. 

Democratic state representative Chris England is one of a handful of lawmakers who voted against the prison construction plan. 

He argues Alabama lawmakers need to consider more complex reform bills to address the prison crisis. 

Representative Chris England: If you don’t deal with the structural issues within the system, whether it be the sentencing issues, whether it be through the lack of paroles or how we struggle to rehabilitate people, you’re just going to end up putting old problems into new buildings. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: England is a lawyer, a former prosecutor. He’s been active in the discussion about prison reform since the U.S. Justice Department first declared Alabama’s prisons unconstitutional.

England says he’s disappointed at where the state is going. 

Representative Chris England: The federal investigations and the lawsuits, it’s more or less a gift and a curse. Because it drew the attention to the issues within the system. But it’s also encouraging Alabama to do the absolute bare minimum, which is build prisons.  

Mary Scott Hodgin: When the U.S. Justice Department told Alabama to improve conditions in state prisons, it provided a detailed list of changes that would help the state meet constitutional standards. 

Hire more security staff. Implement new policies to reduce violence and contraband. Improve supervision and management. Improve record keeping and documentation. 

Justice officials did not tell the state to build new prisons. They did acknowledge that new facilities “might cure” some physical issues, but alone they “will not resolve” issues like understaffing, corruption and violence.

Officials with the Department of Justice declined an interview request to discuss the case. 

But in lawsuit filings they say not much has changed since their original report in 2019. 

They say violence continues inside Alabama’s prisons. They say the prisons are still extremely overcrowded and critically understaffed. Inmates have easy access to drugs and homemade weapons. Correctional officers are exhausted and commonly use excessive force against incarcerated people. 

I wanted to know how many men died of suspected homicide, suicide and overdose inside Alabama’s prisons in fiscal year 2021. 

Officials with the Alabama Department of Corrections couldn’t give me a number. They said they don’t have the resources to review every case file. 

But according to a report by the American Civil Liberties Union, in calendar year 2021 at least 11 people died in homicides, at least six died by suicide and at least 19 people died in suspected drug-related deaths. 

In federal court, the state of Alabama continues to deny that conditions in its prisons violate the U.S. Constitution. 

They continue to push back against the claims made by the Justice Department. 

It’s not clear what will come out of the lawsuit. 

The state could reach an agreement with justice officials. The judge overseeing the case could order changes to the prison system.  

For now, the case appears likely to drag on for years. 

A trial date is scheduled for November of 2024.

In many ways, we’ve been here before. 

Tom Brokaw: The American prison system is on trial in effect in Montgomery, Alabama. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Decades ago similar complaints of violence and overcrowding led Federal Judge Frank Johnson to put control of Alabama’s prisons into the hands of the federal court system for more than a decade. 

The state increased funding, added security staff and it built prisons. 

In recent years, another federal judge, Myron Thompson, has ordered several changes to Alabama’s prison system to improve mental health care for people inside. 

The state has since increased funding for the department. Hired more mental health staff. Approved a raise for correctional officers. 

And now, another plan for new prisons. 

Anthony: Anyone want to bring us in with prayer?

Mary Scott Hodgin: When the pandemic hit, the Offender Alumni Association moved its meetings online. 

But they started back up in person in the summer of 2021.  

About 10 people sit in a circle, mostly men. There are sandwiches and coffee.

After an opening prayer, they introduce themselves. 

Anthony: I’m Anthony. I’m from Odenville. I’ve been out of prison now 8 and a half months. Been with OAA ever since. Glad to be here. 

Cedric: Hi I’m Cedric. Been here little bit over 3 years. Formerly returning citizen. And I’m just glad to be here tonight.

Angelo: I’m Angelo. Uh, first night attending the program. Been out of prison 11 months. Did 22 years straight. Trying to make it. 

Willie: Good evening I’m Willie, member of OAA. Did 47 years in prison straight. I been out 3 years, and I’m glad to be here. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: The group spends about an hour discussing the night’s topic, humility. They share stories about working long hours and getting frustrated at co-workers. They talk about how they show compassion and help other people. 

The group leader for the night, Anthony, says this organization has had a big impact in his life.

Anthony: I just got out in November. And I been in prison 3 times. I usually wouldn’t last 3 months, dealing with my drug of choice. I been out now 8 months. My sister introduced me to OAA. Man, it couldn’t have been a better thing she did for me. Cus you know, ever since I been with ‘em, ain’t been stuck no drugs, keep a clear mind and everything you know. It’s just like another family to me. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: The group closes out the night with the serenity prayer. 

Group: God grant us the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. To change the things that i can and the wisdom to know the difference.

Anthony: Keep coming back! OAA keep it pumping.

Mary Scott Hodgin: I’ve talked with dozens of people who’ve served time in Alabama’s prisons. 

Many of them are back on their feet. They’re working full time as truck drivers and car mechanics. They are giving back to the programs that helped them succeed, running halfway houses and leading church groups. 

Christopher Gunns is 42 years old and has been out of prison for about four years. 

After his release, Gunns says his family helped him with transportation and gave him a place to stay. 

The Offender Alumni Association helped him find a job and three years later, he says he’s still working there, leading an entire department at a concrete manufacturing company. 

Christopher Gunns: It's mind boggling because you have a two time offender that was looking at twenty five years on both cases. Now I'm sitting in a place where I'm probably one of the top 10 most trusted men to help run this company.

Mary Scott Hodgin: Forty-nine-year old Willie Terry says he’s been out for almost 6 years. He says he recently bought a house with his girlfriend and he’s the head cook at a Popeyes Kitchen. 

Willie Terry: I been there almost two years now, you know, and I love my job.

Mary Scott Hodgin: It’s been almost four years since David Fuller got out of prison. He says it was a tough transition.

David Fuller: I couldn’t get no work when I first got home. I couldn’t get no work. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: He started shining shoes at a barbershop, something he learned to do while incarcerated. He signed up with a temp agency and got a job working in a hospital. 

Then the pandemic hit. 

David Fuller: I had to quit my job because I have high blood pressure, diabetes, and they said that’s a big risk factor. I had to find something else to do. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Fuller says he found work at a car manufacturing plant. Then he got a job at a seafood market. 

David Fuller: So I went over there working, getting paid every week, making about 3 to 400 dollars every week, helping me pay my bills. And then I was all of a sudden getting sick and sick. And I had to go to the doctor. And he was telling me “you’re damaged on both sides of your chest.”

Mary Scott Hodgin: Fuller was diagnosed with heart failure. He says he had to stop working and signed up for disability payments. 

Last time we talked, near the end of 2021, he was getting about $800 a month plus some extra money from shining shoes whenever he could. 

He said it barely covered his bills. There’s monthly rent, the power bill, phone bill, car payment. Plus the $40 a month he owes to the state parole office. 

Fuller said he was still adjusting to the free world. Learning how to trust people, how to control his emotions. 

David Fuller: Sometimes I get upset, frustrated. Usually when I get angry and stuff, I have to settle down and go be by myself for a minute, calm down like I always do. I got to get control of my temper sometimes. I got a temper. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Fuller said he's making it work and staying out of trouble. 

When he left prison, he said, he felt like people expected him to fail. 

David Fuller: And now here it is, I been out here three years. I ain’t been involved with the law. Still doing good. Living like a citizen. Still got my apartment. The same apartment. So my thing is, you can do it. If you set your mind to do it, you can do it. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Dena Dickerson, the program director of the Offender Alumni Association, says people leaving prison can be successful. But they need support. Because prison, the way it is now, is traumatic. 

Dena Dickerson: If you haven’t lived the experience, you only have ideas. It’s your idea, it’s your opinion about it. Right. And you can’t say to a person incarcerated what I can say to ‘em. It’s almost like a person who’s been to Vietnam. They may not talk to you but they’ll talk to each other. It’s because they know beyond the shadow of a doubt, the truth. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Dickerson says the DOJ report and lawsuit raised awareness. It motivated people to speak up and share their stories. 

She says we'll see change when we can recognize the humanity of the people we lock up.

This is Deliberate Indifference. 

I’m Mary Scott Hodgin. I wrote and reported this episode. 

Kate Smith edited the script.

Meg Martin fact checked the episode.

Matthew Hancock created our music and served as audio engineer.

Miranda Fulmore helped with production assistance and digital material. 

Special thanks to Gigi Douban, who supported this project from the beginning. 

And thanks to everyone who helped out along the way: 

Andrew Yeager, Karma Tolliver, Caroline Spears and Priska Neely offered feedback on early episode drafts. 

Michael Harrington and Diana Beattie were our voice actors in episode 5. 

Audrey Atkins helped with marketing. 

Cayenne Creative designed our website. 

NPR’s Story Lab helped us get started. Thanks to Debbie Elliott and Peter Breslow. 

And special thanks to Alberto Enes Romero.

To hear all of our episodes, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And be sure to check out our website for more details. That’s deliberate indifference dot org.