Mary Scott Hodgin: A heads up before we get going. This is a grown-up story about prison. It describes violent acts including sexual assault. It's not for kids and it may not be for all adult listeners. 

James: It’s common to see blood on the sidewalk everywhere, you know when you’re walking. You know, I’ve been diagnosed with PTSD since I been here. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Inside Alabama’s prisons, there’s a reality many of us know nothing about: The daily life of men behind bars and the people who guard them.

 H. LaMarr Classberry: As a correction officer, you got to know how to fight. You're going to be in hand-to-hand combat. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Prisons are violent. Alabama’s stand out. 

Federal officials say they’re among the most violent prisons in the country.

Take just one week inside Alabama’s prisons. It’s a week in 2017.

On Friday, two men repeatedly stab another in the back of a prison dormitory. The victim screams. Other men bang on the door for help. But guards don’t get there in time. The man bleeds to death.  

That same day, at a different prison, a man is injured so badly, he’s airlifted to a hospital. 

On Saturday, four men attack another man. 

Sunday, a man is beaten with metal locks while sleeping in his bed. 

Tuesday, a man sets fire to another man’s blanket. 

Wednesday, a man is sexually assaulted in an isolation cell. 

Thursday, four men attack another, and one man dies of a drug overdose. 

That was just one week inside Alabama’s prisons. And just some of the violence that occurred. 

We know about that week because the U.S. Department of Justice used it as an example to show how unsafe Alabama’s prisons are. 

It was part of a report the department released in 2019.  

News Clip 1: The Department of Justice says conditions in Alabama prisons are unsafe and unconstitutional.

News Clip 2: They discovered high rates of violence in the prisons, sexual abuse, and a failure to provide prisoners with safe conditions.

 News Clip 2: The federal government called the Alabama Department of Corrections a “broken system.” 

Mary Scott Hodgin: The report says prison conditions “pose a substantial risk of serious harm” and the state of “Alabama is deliberately indifferent to that harm.”

The state’s prison crisis was set in motion decades ago. Now it’s at a tipping point.

In this podcast, we’ll hear from men on the inside. They live a reality we have all helped shape, with our money and our laws. 

It’s a system many say is broken and, if Alabama officials can’t fix it, the federal government could force them to.  

From WBHM in Birmingham, this is Deliberate Indifference: the story of Alabama’s prison crisis and the people inside it. 

I’m Mary Scott Hodgin. 

In this episode we’ll see what life looks like behind bars.  And what happens when prison violence turns deadly.

PART ONE

Bianca Ladd lives in an apartment north of Birmingham, Alabama. 

She is 31 years old. She’s small in stature but has a big personality. 

Ladd grew up in Birmingham and was close to her older brother, Brandon. They lived in separate homes but most weekends, they would stay together at their aunt’s house. And Ladd says they had a Saturday routine. 

Bianca Ladd: We’ll get up, have breakfast you know, and then, we’d always go to the mall. We’d always go to the Galleria mall. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: The Galleria is this big mall outside of Birmingham. It’s where Bianca Ladd and her brother would hang out. 

She remembers one day specifically. They were both in their teens.. They went to the Galleria and her brother was on a mission.   

Bianca Ladd: And I’ll never forget it, my brother wanted some shoes. He wanted some Charles Barkley shoes. And my aunt, she made sure that she got him the shoes that he wanted. And he used to love to wear headbands. So I think the shoes was blue and white. And he ended up getting a blue headband to go with it, and like a nice shirt. Cus my brother, he used to love to dress nice.  

Mary Scott Hodgin: She says her brother liked to make people happy. He liked to make them laugh. 

The siblings were close, just two years apart.

They went through some rough times together. Ladd says their mom struggled with an addiction to crack cocaine. It was especially hard on her brother.

Bianca Ladd: Brandon and my mom, they was more closer than, like, than anybody. Like, my momma. We all had a relationship with her. But her and Brandon, they was like two peas in a pod. Because Brandon saw her high. He saw her sober. He saw her up. He saw her down. He saw her through it all. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Their mom died in 2004. Ladd says she was hit and killed by a train. 

Bianca Ladd: And I think that, I think he was angry. Like angry and wanted to lash out on somebody and I think that’s what led him to rob. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Two years later, when Brandon Ladd was 17, he got his first felony conviction. Armed robbery. He served almost 3 years in prison. 

In 2010, Ladd was out on probation when he was convicted of armed burglary and kidnapping.

This time he was sentenced to 23 years. 

Bianca Ladd: The last time I saw my brother alive, actually when he went to prison. Yes, that was the last time I saw him. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Brandon Ladd became one of thousands of men locked up in Alabama’s prison system. It’s a punishment that can mean much more than losing your freedom.

Most people have never been inside a prison. The buildings are tucked away out of sight. There are rows of electric fences, walls and gates.

In Alabama, there are 13 major prisons for men. And they’re scattered across the state, in mostly rural areas. 

Kilby Correctional Facility sits beside a two-lane road outside of Montgomery, the state’s capital.  

I toured Kilby in March of 2019.

It was the first time I’d been in a prison. 

In a lobby area, a woman takes my keys and my ID.  

Samantha Rose: You doing ok today? 

 Mary Scott Hodgin: That’s Samantha Rose. At the time, she was a public relations specialist with the Alabama Department of Corrections.  

Samantha Rose: Hey Warden! You doing OK?            

Leon Bolling: I’m good how you doing? 

Mary Scott Hodgin: I’m Mary Scott

Leon Bolling: Hey, Warden Bolling

Mary Scott Hodgin: Nice to meet you.

Leon Bolling: Nice to meet you too. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Leon Bolling is a big guy, soft spoken. He’d been with the department for decades. In 2019, he was the warden at Kilby. He’s since retired.

Bolling leads the tour as we walk around the prison.

Kilby is the intake center. So when there’s not a pandemic going on, it’s the first stop for every man sentenced to prison in Alabama.

Leon Bolling: This is our receiving unit. Inmate comes through the back gate.

Mary Scott Hodgin: When men first get to Kilby, they go to the receiving unit to turn over any property, get their haircut and take a shower. 

There’s an announcement when we walk in. 

Leon Bolling: Female. Got a female coming in. 

Mary Scott Hodgin There’s me with my recorder and headphones. Accompanied by a PR specialist and the warden. 

Inside, men sit in holding cells, waiting to hear their names called. 

Leon Bolling: They'll process an inmate if he came from the county jail. They go from with cage one. Then they go to cage two, then three. Then they work their way back. These guys are ready to go to population, go back go to….

Mary Scott Hodgin: Everybody’s so quiet (laugh - uncomfortable)

Leon Bolling: Well it’s a regiment, you know, intake, right? Intake is the fear of the unknown. You don’t know what’s going to happen. That’s the fear. But you do have a lot of recidivism, people that have been here 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 times. So they basically know the routine at that point in time. But the newer inmates… 

Samantha Rose: It’s intimidating. 

Leon Bolling: Yeah, very much so.

Mary Scott Hodgin: I can only imagine what these guys are thinking as they sit behind bars waiting to enter prison. Intimidating is one word. And according to federal investigators, they certainly have reason to fear. 

U.S. Justice officials say incarcerated men stab, beat and rape each other. 

But people inside Alabama prisons don’t need to read a report about the violence. They see it almost every day. 

Over the past several years, I’ve talked with many people for this podcast including men locked up in Alabama’s prisons.  

I’ve written them letters and gave them a phone number so they can call me collect using the prison phone system. The only way to talk is when they call me. 

Jim George is one of the first men who called. 

He’s incarcerated at Donaldson Correctional Facility. George is 72 years old and has served more than 40 years in Alabama’s prisons for a string of crimes including burglary, robbery, attempted escape. George says he cannot even count how many men he’s seen killed over the years. And he’s been injured many times.  

Jim George: Several fights. I’ve been cut. I’ve been stabbed. It’s not a safe          place. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: At another prison called Fountain Correctional Facility, I heard from 33-year-old Alonzo Goines. He’s serving a 20-year sentence for armed robbery. 

Alonzo Goines: I’ve been stabbed since I’ve been in prison. I was stabbed in my sleep. 

 Mary Scott Hodgin: Goines says one of the biggest problems is overcrowding. 

Alonzo Goines: There’s just too many individuals in one dorm. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Overcrowding is one of the key issues raised by federal justice officials. It’s mentioned over and over again in their report. They say, “Alabama has one of the most overcrowded prison systems in the nation.”

To give an example, one of the state’s most overcrowded prisons, Staton Correctional Facility, was designed for about 500 men.  According to recent data, it houses more than a thousand. 

The problem has been mounting for decades. To make room for all the extra bodies, prison officials have turned gymnasiums into dormitories. Spaces originally built for storage or manufacturing are now stacked wall to wall with bunk beds. 

Another inmate, James, asked us not to use his last name for fear of retribution by other inmates or prison staff.

James: The dorm I'm in has roughly about 190 people in it. You know, probably three feet apart or four feet. I mean it's, we're packed in here like sardines.

Mary Scott Hodgin: I’ve talked with a number of men in Alabama prisons who describe a wide range of conditions. They say some housing units are worse than others. James says he lives in one of the less chaotic dorms.

James: But the other ones, there's no there's no structure. You got guys sleeping on the floor. You know, and that's, that's normal. There’s no control, as far as the officers.

Mary Scott Hodgin: It’s not just that Alabama’s prisons are overcrowded. They are dangerously understaffed. 

This is all documented in that report I talked about earlier. According to U.S. Justice officials, ”Staffing ratios are so low in some dormitories” the state “is essentially providing no security for prisoners.”

The report says dorms housing up to 180 men “are often unsupervised for hours or shifts at a time.”

Not only does the staffing shortage create a dangerous environment for incarcerated people, it puts the security staff at risk. 

Kevin Moore worked in one of Alabama’s maximum security prisons for almost 10 years before he quit in 2020. He says he never felt safe.

Kevin Moore: I always feared for my life in corrections. It was not at one point that I did not. I told my wife daily, “I love you. I may make it home. I may not.” 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Officers have been stabbed and beaten. In recent years, one correctional officer was killed on the job.  

Many officers say they know inmates have contraband like drugs and cell phones. They know men are assaulting and attacking one another. But they say there’s only so much they can do to stop it because they are so outnumbered. 

Another officer I talked to still works at one of Alabama’s maximum security prisons. He asked us not to use his name for fear of losing his job. 

Officer 1: You're sitting in a dorm with two hundred inmates and you're one officer. It's nothing for those guys to, you know, get one over on you. So sometimes you may have to let some things kind of slide between the lines as far as like the official rules are concerned.

Mary Scott Hodgin: U.S. Justice officials say in recent years, the amount of violence inside Alabama’s prisons has been “much higher” than in many other states. 

And since they sounded the alarm homicide numbers are up. 

In fiscal year 2019, at least 11 men died at the hands of other prisoners. In fiscal year 2020, the number increased to 16. 

And justice officials say Alabama does not even report all prisoner-on-prisoner homicides. Its investigation outlines at least three cases where prison staff reported that men had died from natural causes. But the men had all died as a result of being beaten or stabbed. Federal investigators say the state’s record keeping and crime classification are inadequate. Prison officials deny these allegations. 

The Alabama Department of Corrections has acknowledged many of the issues raised by the federal investigation. State corrections leaders say they’re “actively working to remedy” the concerns.

The Department of Justice says overcrowding and understaffing drive the rampant violence inside Alabama’s prisons, which we’ll talk more about in future episodes. 

But there are other factors at play. The feds detail chronic mismanagement and corruption among staff. There’s contraband coming into state facilities. That includes drugs, homemade weapons and cell phones. 

The federal report goes into excruciating detail about the violence. Men stabbed in the head, repeatedly raped, even tied up and tortured in the back of dormitories. It’s difficult to read and hard to fathom. But the report leaves no doubt. Alabama’s prisons are dangerous and chaotic. And inside men are traumatized. Some are killed.

After a break, how one life ended inside an Alabama prison. And how the U.S. Justice Department’s report sparked calls for change.  

You're listening to Deliberate Indifference, from WBHM in Birmingham.

PART TWO

Mary Scott Hodgin: This is a grown-up story about prison. It's not for kids and it may not be for all adult listeners. 

This is Deliberate Indifference. I’m Mary Scott Hodgin.

Brandon Ladd’s arrest for armed robbery and kidnapping resulted in a 23-year prison sentence. He ended up serving just under ten before he died. 

His sister Bianca says they talked on the phone just about every day.

Bianca Ladd:  Here it go, cus he got so much stuff on his Facebook page. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Like a lot of guys in prison, Brandon Ladd had a cell phone. While that’s against the rules, cell phones are a common form of contraband. And from prison, Brandon would log onto Facebook.  

A lot of his posts are funny comments or jokes. Sometimes a shout out to a girlfriend. But Brandon Ladd also used Facebook as an outlet - to write poetry and talk about life in prison. 

Sitting in her living room, Bianca scrolls through her cell phone and reads one of his posts aloud. 

Bianca Ladd: This is a poem he wrote. and it say, “Before you go and grab that pistol, think about that bigger picture. It’s a grand puppet master that’s pulling us right into the system. I did the crime but shit, I ain’t think about the aftershock, years away from my family. Knife fights in the cellblock, lost the love of my life. Took a ways to crawl back from the blow. Try to win this dirty game, only to wind up losing more…”

Mary Scott Hodgin: Bianca Ladd says her brother knew that Alabama’s prisons were violent long before the U.S. Justice Department released a report about it. 

Bianca Ladd: He he did, endured a lot while he was in prison.

Mary Scott Hodgin: The Alabama Department of Corrections denied our request to view Brandon Ladd’s prison file. But other sources show that Ladd was involved in several incidents while he was in prison.

Court documents include a few disciplinary reports. One is for hitting another inmate in the face. Another is for trying to smuggle a green pepper out of the prison kitchen.

In a letter filed with the court, Ladd confirmed he was the target of prison assaults. And he wrote about seeing other men get stabbed. 

A non-profit legal advocacy group called the Equal Justice Initiative tracked some of the more recent violence Ladd experienced.

In 2015, it reports Ladd was stabbed in the arm and chest by another inmate during a robbery. His lung collapsed and he underwent surgery.

A few years later, Ladd was stabbed again. This time, he was reportedly stabbed in the back while handcuffed. He needed surgery for a dislocated shoulder.

The next year, in 2019, Ladd was moved to a different prison. Another inmate stabbed him in the head and in the eye. After four surgeries, he was left legally blind in one eye. 

A few months later, Brandon Ladd was transferred again to Bibb County Correctional Facility. Less than a month after his arrival, on December 10, 2019, Ladd was stabbed in the neck. 

And he died.

Bianca Ladd: I never forget it. I got the call like at 4:57 a.m. My aunt called me, cus she, my brother got her listed as his mom. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Bianca’s aunt, Dorris Smith, is in her late 70’s. She helped raise them. 

Smith remembers getting the call from prison. It was about 4 a.m. 

Dorris Smith: I wouldn’t answer the phone. So I got up and I got on my knees and prayed, you know, somebody calling that time of morning. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: But the phone kept ringing. And Smith eventually picked up. 

Dorris Smith: And and the lady said “I just want to tell you, Brandon dead.”

Mary Scott Hodgin: She called Bianca Ladd, who called the prison to get more information from a woman who worked there.

Bianca Ladd: She said your brother was involved in a dispute and resulted to his death. I said, “what happened?” And then she didn’t say. She just said, “that’s all I can tell you and it’s being investigated.”

Mary Scott Hodgin: When there are fights or stabbings, rapes or murders, prison officials don’t release a lot of information to families or to the public. 

In Brandon Ladd’s case, the corrections department classified his death as an inmate-on-inmate homicide. 

Local prosecutors filed a capital murder charge against the alleged assailant. They are asking for the death penalty. The suspect entered a plea of not guilty. A trial date has not been set. 

Bianca Ladd requested that her brother’s body be released to the family. She got his personal property. And she gathered up the money to plan a funeral service.

Bianca Ladd: My brother had been locked up all those years, and for him to like just to come home in a bag, to come home deceased, it was just hard. It was just, I was shocked. I thought like I was just dreaming. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: The memorial was at a funeral home in Birmingham just a few days before Christmas in 2019.

There was an open casket. Brandon Ladd wore a baseball cap and a rhinestone cross necklace. 

About 40 people showed up. Brandon and Bianca’s brother, Brian, couldn’t attend because he was in prison.

Anyia King: Good morning.

Mary Scott Hodgin: Towards the middle of the service, Brandon’s cousin Anyia King said a few words. 

Anyia King: (deep breath) OK. As kids it was me and Kirwin versus you and Jazz. As teens it was always me and you versus Bianca. One of us was always the reason she left and went back home. As adults it became me and you and Bianca versus the world. We would sit on the phone and laugh, talking about the good ole days. We didn’t know 500 as you called yourself. We didn’t even take you serious. Your laugh, oh my God. That laugh would either make you laugh or mad - depending on who you were cracking on at the time. That’s the Brandon that we know and will always remember. That’s the Brandon we will make sure the world knows. I love you so so much. That’s how we ended every call. I have peace because of that. I’m so grateful we had that relationship until the end. I know you now have the peace this world could not give you. I love you, Brandon.

Mary Scott Hodgin: I talked with Anyia King after the funeral, at the reception. She and the Ladds grew up together. They were close. 

Anyia King: So it’s been tough. It’s been tough because I’ve lost a brother before and it’s just like going through the same thing again. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: Her brother Kirwin King was shot and killed in 2009 right before Brandon Ladd went back to prison.

Mary Scott Hodgin: Do you think that people view it, like you said your brother was murdered. Brandon was murdered. But Brandon was murdered in prison. Do you think people see it differently? 

Anyia King: I do. I do think that people see it differently because they don’t look at him initially like he’s a victim. The first thing is ‘well what was he in prison for, or what caused it?’ so yeah, they kind of, you know so they kind of dehumanize him to a sort. 

Advocate chants: Enough is enough!

Mary Scott Hodgin: Brandon Ladd was murdered eight months after the Justice Department report came out. 

Around that time, more families started sharing their stories. People were mad. 

It got media attention. And advocates got louder.  

They held a rally to make their message clear to the state’s governor, Kay Ivey, and Corrections Commissioner at the time, Jeff Dunn.

Advocates: Governor Ivey! Enough is enough! Commissioner Dunn! Enough is enough! 

Mary Scott Hodgin: That was in January of 2020 just months before COVID-19 shut things down. 

Prison reform advocates went to the Alabama state house for a meeting about criminal justice policy. 

Advocates: How are y’all doing today? So we’re out here today because we’re trying to say enough is enough man. We got a report from DOJ, the Department of Justice, last year in April, stating the fact that the Department of Corrections has been inhumane in their treatment. And it’s just enough. I mean how many deaths? How many suicides? How many overdoses? How many inmate-on-inmate killings? How many officer-on-inmate killings is it going to take for the Department of Justice or Governor Ivey or somebody to say “hey, enough is enough. What we’re doing is not producing.”

Mary Scott Hodgin: The protest was one of several that happened after the federal investigation was released.  

The report was something to grab on to. It put a spotlight on the danger and conditions.  The report was also a warning that if state officials didn’t do something, the feds might intervene.

And for guys on the inside, the report offered some hope. Hasani Jennings is 48 years old. He’s been locked up for nearly 30 years serving life without parole for a capital murder conviction. 

Hasani Jennings: We know that change needed to happen and we felt like it would be a catalyst to make something happen. You know we, we sit here, we, we see the problems and we live through the problems, but it's like, you know, it doesn't make a difference. We don't have, we don't have a voice to, to cause any positive change. So when the report came out, everybody was, a lot of, most guys were excited because, you know, it seemed like it was an opportunity for the public to see and for the public to instigate the change where we didn’t have the means to from the inside.

Mary Scott Hodgin: The Justice Department report laid out the corruption, mismanagement and violence in state prisons. And there was a moment of political consensus. In early 2020, lawmakers declared that the prison problem was a priority. 

The state’s Republican governor, Kay Ivey, repeatedly said she wants an “Alabama solution” to an “Alabama problem.” 

Governor Ivey refused several requests for an interview about the state’s prison system. 

But she did talk about the issue during her state of the state speech in February of 2020.  

Kay Ivey: One of my top priorities for this coming session is tackling another problem that others have either chosen to ignore or been unable to solve. Both my strong faith in the Lord and a heartfelt concern for basic human rights gives me a sense of urgency to address our longstanding challenges within our criminal justice system. Ladies and gentlemen, we simply cannot afford to wait any longer to tackle this problem and defeat and failure is not an option. (applause)

Mary Scott Hodgin: Early that year, there were plans for reform bills. Increasing educational programs in prison. Changes to sentencing laws. There was a big push to build new prisons. 

But those plans were interrupted. 

The coronavirus stole the spotlight. 

 Jeff Dunn: It literally impacted every part of the prison system.

Mary Scott Hodgin: That’s Jeff Dunn. He was the corrections commissioner while all of this unfolded. He oversaw the state prison system from 2015 through the end of 2021.

Dunn is a military guy, always in a suit. He was the public face of Alabama’s prisons. He took over as commissioner after a career in the Air Force. 

Dunn says the pandemic hit prisons hard. They canceled visitation, scrambled to give out soap and hand sanitizer. They reopened an 80-year-old prison to temporarily house new inmates.

When the virus made its way into the prisons, they created “quarantine dorms.” Gave out masks made by other inmates. 

As of early May 2022, 78 people locked up in Alabama’s prisons and 3 employees have died after a COVID-19 diagnosis.  

In the months after the pandemic hit, the violence and the sexual abuse and the threat of a federal lawsuit was no longer front page news.

Then in July of 2020 Justice Department officials released another report about Alabama’s prisons. This one is focused on prison staff, saying they “frequently use excessive force” against Alabama prisoners. 

And at the end of 2020, the Department of Justice filed a lawsuit against the state of Alabama. 

The federal government says the state hasn’t done enough to resolve the problems in its prisons.

The Alabama Department of Corrections disagrees.  

When federal officials filed the lawsuit, prison leaders released a statement criticizing the Department of Justice. They said the federal government was  relying on “piecemeal anecdotes” and ignoring reform efforts.

Just a few months before he retired, former Commissioner Dunn said those reform efforts continue. 

Jeff Dunn: You know, I can't speak actively about ongoing litigation, but what I can say is that the department is on a pathway towards transformation, as described both in our strategic plan and in other things that we initiated.

Mary Scott Hodgin: During most of his time as commissioner, Dunn pushed a four-part strategic plan. It focused on staffing, programming, work culture and infrastructure, in other words, new prisons. 

Dunn said his department had made some progress on the plan during the last few years, though progress has been slower in some areas. 

He said prison leaders want to improve the system and to address issues of violence and contraband. 

Jeff Dunn: Now, it is, I think, beneficial that I think that's what the courts want as well. And so in that sense, I think there's, there's agreement that we need to do those things. As to the specifics of the case and all that, obviously, I can't tell. But I think we're going to continue to pursue that, not separate from the litigation and not regardless of the litigation, but because that's the right thing to do. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: It’s been 3 years since the Department of Justice released that first report on Alabama’s prisons. 

In a recent court filing, federal officials say the state’s prisons are still overcrowded and understaffed. Inside, men are attacked, raped, and murdered. 

If conditions don’t improve, a federal judge could step in and force action. 

But will that change anything? 

Did it change anything last time?  

News Clip: Evening. A federal judge today in effect took over the Alabama state prison system. 

Mary Scott Hodgin: That’s right. This is not the first time the federal government has shined a spotlight on Alabama’s prisons. It happened more than 40 years ago. 

Back then, a federal judge took over the state’s prison system for more than a decade. And it sparked a bitter battle for change. 

John Carroll: It really was viewed as one of the most revolutionary uses of federal power. Essentially an order requiring the prison system to completely change the way it was doing business.

That’s next time on Deliberate Indifference.

This is Deliberate Indifference. 

I’m Mary Scott Hodgin. I wrote and reported this episode. 

Kate Smith and Gigi Douban edited the script.

Meg Martin fact checked the episode.

Matthew Hancock created our music and served as audio engineer.

Miranda Fulmore helped with production assistance and digital material. 

Help along the way from Audrey Atikins and Andrew Yeager. 

Website design by Cayenne Creative. 

NPR’s Story Lab helped get this project started. Thanks to Debbie Elliott and Peter Breslow. 

And special thanks to Alberto Enes Romero.

To hear all of our episodes, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And be sure to check out our website for more details.  That’s deliberate indifference dot org. 

Join me next time for a new episode of Deliberate Indifference.